I bought the Angling times last week because it had free line the only reason. What i found hard to believe inside was rivers were being wiped out by Otters eating all the big fish. Barbel were mentioned in the debate. The river i fish has plenty of Barbel it also has Otters why do the otters not eat the barbel on the river i fish, surely i would be finding the bones ect of these large fish?PB
Guest
G
G
I have seen, on ths forum, posts referring to double figure Barbel being targeted by OTTERS on a Norfolk river. Personally, as a one time keen barbel fisher, i think it's a load of bo**ocks.. I would find it hard to believe an Otter could handle a double barbel unless said fish was already injured or ill..
With regard to Barbel taking Salmon Lies... I used to fish the Royalty fisheries on the Hampshire Avon...Stuffed with BARBEL.. I would often watch Big barbel laying alongside Salmon, often in excess of 30lbs... Never seemed to bother them.. A popular viewing position was from the little bridge that gave access to the santuary in the parlour pool..
With regard to other species eating Salmon eggs, the biggest offenders are other game fish...
50 yrs ago the runs of migratory fish were tremendous, so was the populatin of coarse fish in the rivers.. Would it not seem feasible that if, in that case, the destruction of Game fish redds would have been happening at a rate pro rata to now....???? And is it so happening that way?? I doubt it
It seems rather too coincidental to me that the disapearance of migratory species started to be noticed as more and more rivers were being played with by the authorities, ie water abstraction stations, increased abstraction by farmers, Dams, weirs, Barrages.
The increased use of Nitrate fertilisers to try and increase the bounty from the soil to meet the growing needs of a growing population ????
I've seen several rivers go down the drain, my saddest sight is to see the lower Welsh Dee becoming a semi stagnant pond in the summer.. I can remember there was always enough flow at its lowest time, to trot a float properly on It, would be difficult now.. I say this as i stiill have the odd foray to my favorite river for a bash at the coarse fish..
Its too easy to blame nature for all the woes of migratory fish... Nature made a good enough job of it before man thought he new better..
End of rant...
Si....
With regard to Barbel taking Salmon Lies... I used to fish the Royalty fisheries on the Hampshire Avon...Stuffed with BARBEL.. I would often watch Big barbel laying alongside Salmon, often in excess of 30lbs... Never seemed to bother them.. A popular viewing position was from the little bridge that gave access to the santuary in the parlour pool..
With regard to other species eating Salmon eggs, the biggest offenders are other game fish...
50 yrs ago the runs of migratory fish were tremendous, so was the populatin of coarse fish in the rivers.. Would it not seem feasible that if, in that case, the destruction of Game fish redds would have been happening at a rate pro rata to now....???? And is it so happening that way?? I doubt it
It seems rather too coincidental to me that the disapearance of migratory species started to be noticed as more and more rivers were being played with by the authorities, ie water abstraction stations, increased abstraction by farmers, Dams, weirs, Barrages.
The increased use of Nitrate fertilisers to try and increase the bounty from the soil to meet the growing needs of a growing population ????
I've seen several rivers go down the drain, my saddest sight is to see the lower Welsh Dee becoming a semi stagnant pond in the summer.. I can remember there was always enough flow at its lowest time, to trot a float properly on It, would be difficult now.. I say this as i stiill have the odd foray to my favorite river for a bash at the coarse fish..
Its too easy to blame nature for all the woes of migratory fish... Nature made a good enough job of it before man thought he new better..
End of rant...
Si....
Eels were the main food of otters. Unfortunately the eel population has crashed to an extent where there are serious worries for their survival. This just nicely coincides with the reintroduction of otters on a large scale (no, I am not relating the two things). However the otters will have to eat something. What is getting up the coarse boys noses is that they seem to be targetting their (very expensive) pet carp. The Angling Times is getting quite a reputation for scare mongering. Personally I have no problem with otters and the sight of one (or even 4 like I saw at the same time last year) certainly brightens up yet another fishless day.
I agree with silverinvicta that the real probelm with (wild) fish stocks is mans interference.
SP8
I agree with silverinvicta that the real probelm with (wild) fish stocks is mans interference.
SP8
This Barbel/Salmon problem has become a talking point on the severn. Barbel eating eggs is not my primary concern, but stealing lies is. I'm very interested in what you say about the avon silerinvicta, its reassuring. But the one point to mention is that the avon salmon evolved with barbel in the river, the severn salmon did not. The Severn barbel seem very competetive for ther lies too. I watch them fight each other off! If it is true the salmon need to toughen up a bit, the biggest barbel here are about 5 lb usually! Apparently there was going to be a study on the teme where they electofished the barbel out of a stretch to see if the salmon liked it better. The local course club were not so keen though and it didn't reach a conclusion!
Really, abstracton is the biggest problem. I have strong vews on the subject. I think everyone in Birmingham and manchester who take our river water should be put on a meter. All new houses should be on rainwater harvesting, used for clothes washing and flushing toilets and the garden.This also reduces flooding. Lawn sprinklers should be banned, they use 1000 litres an hour!!!! Drip irrigation systems do a better job of the veg patch anyway. Its about time water resources were taken seriously in view of climate change.
Another area to look at s reduced liming in agriculture. Apparently the shropshire canals main job was carrying agricultural lime! As a child we regularly saw felds beng limed, mum would race to get the washing off the line and shut the wndows. I haven't seen it done in years. That must have an effect. Frank Sawyer was adamant that liming a river cleared no end of rotting leaf type debry.
Really, abstracton is the biggest problem. I have strong vews on the subject. I think everyone in Birmingham and manchester who take our river water should be put on a meter. All new houses should be on rainwater harvesting, used for clothes washing and flushing toilets and the garden.This also reduces flooding. Lawn sprinklers should be banned, they use 1000 litres an hour!!!! Drip irrigation systems do a better job of the veg patch anyway. Its about time water resources were taken seriously in view of climate change.
Another area to look at s reduced liming in agriculture. Apparently the shropshire canals main job was carrying agricultural lime! As a child we regularly saw felds beng limed, mum would race to get the washing off the line and shut the wndows. I haven't seen it done in years. That must have an effect. Frank Sawyer was adamant that liming a river cleared no end of rotting leaf type debry.
G
Angling Times
This weeks angling times looks as though the otter problem has been solved in a week. Every page is of anglers holding big barbel ect. A friend i talk to on our river blames the growing number of barbel on the decline in fly life on the river. Surely the Grayling which is a bottom feeder must take some of the blame. How are all these otters that are wipeing out fisheries going to be culled if allowed .Are the Tories going to bring back the hunting with hounds law . Somebody is going to have to cull all the foxs and otters, mink seem to get of lightly is it because the anties let them out and they dont like to admit they dont know much about the countryside .PB
This weeks angling times looks as though the otter problem has been solved in a week. Every page is of anglers holding big barbel ect. A friend i talk to on our river blames the growing number of barbel on the decline in fly life on the river. Surely the Grayling which is a bottom feeder must take some of the blame. How are all these otters that are wipeing out fisheries going to be culled if allowed .Are the Tories going to bring back the hunting with hounds law . Somebody is going to have to cull all the foxs and otters, mink seem to get of lightly is it because the anties let them out and they dont like to admit they dont know much about the countryside .PB
G
Outside,
there were also a fair few very large Chubb, they seem to know one
cannot fish for them there....There were by the way, huge runs of Salmon at that period.. If there were not several in excess of 40lb taken each season, questions were asked .
I would think hard on the Salmon being brought up without Barbel on the Severn theory.. Not all the Salmon returning are true bloodstock.. Do you know the other rivers those importd fish were sourced from???? Or even how many other rivers fish genes are mixed with the imported broodstock, if any of course....
How long do's it take a salmon to become mixed blood ? One spawning of mixed source fish would equate that in my eyes...
And there have been Barbel in numbers for a very long time in the river now....Would there be any solely Severn Salmon true bloods left these days ???.. I personaly would doubt it.....But that is only MY train of thought..
One other thought...With the amount of floods on some of our rivers, including the Severn, does it not seem possible that the pools and holding areas might have altered ??? in so much that Salmon might be changing lies and new lies must be found by the angler????
Lots of interesting trains of thought here........
I shall have to some more research
Good post you
Si......
there were also a fair few very large Chubb, they seem to know one
cannot fish for them there....There were by the way, huge runs of Salmon at that period.. If there were not several in excess of 40lb taken each season, questions were asked .
I would think hard on the Salmon being brought up without Barbel on the Severn theory.. Not all the Salmon returning are true bloodstock.. Do you know the other rivers those importd fish were sourced from???? Or even how many other rivers fish genes are mixed with the imported broodstock, if any of course....
How long do's it take a salmon to become mixed blood ? One spawning of mixed source fish would equate that in my eyes...
And there have been Barbel in numbers for a very long time in the river now....Would there be any solely Severn Salmon true bloods left these days ???.. I personaly would doubt it.....But that is only MY train of thought..
One other thought...With the amount of floods on some of our rivers, including the Severn, does it not seem possible that the pools and holding areas might have altered ??? in so much that Salmon might be changing lies and new lies must be found by the angler????
Lots of interesting trains of thought here........
I shall have to some more research
Good post you
Si......
If I had not seen it with my own eyes,I wouldn't have thought they would tackle such big fish myself Bap,but - They were big and hard enough to kill and eat carp to 17lb in Andy's lake
DAZ
G
Big Otters
Big Otters
Sounds like something out of a horror film . The norfolk otters dont sound very much like the otters in films and wildlife programs .Ive seen seals eating 20 pound salmon and they are joined by gulls ect .On the upper Tees i have seen the remains of crayfish ,you would think the otters would cull some of the larger crayfish that are killing the native crayfish that seems to be spreading around our rivers. Seventeen pounds of carp will give the otters a while to digest surely .I dont suppose they would be able to run away if they were disturbed, the seals i watch perform in front of me they are that used to the public.PB
Big Otters
Sounds like something out of a horror film . The norfolk otters dont sound very much like the otters in films and wildlife programs .Ive seen seals eating 20 pound salmon and they are joined by gulls ect .On the upper Tees i have seen the remains of crayfish ,you would think the otters would cull some of the larger crayfish that are killing the native crayfish that seems to be spreading around our rivers. Seventeen pounds of carp will give the otters a while to digest surely .I dont suppose they would be able to run away if they were disturbed, the seals i watch perform in front of me they are that used to the public.
PBSlverinvicta, it goes to show yet again that it is a subject beyond our current understanding. We can only throw up more questions. I'll add the the 'true blood salmon theory' a bit though. It is often said by travelling anglers that a deadly method on one river is useless on another. Of course it may be the water and not the fsh that is at fault! It is also said that certain rivers salmon look different to others. maybe.
I don't blame the barbel for the poor sport. The lies have moved here, works on the weir and banks seem to have changed everything. Then there is the problem of the local 'stuck in the mud' approach to fishing the water. I call it the 'I caught loads in 1962 when there was good water and a huge run, and all i did was fish a static worm' effect. The main cause, i think, of changng lies is the height of the water though. A traditional lie of 30 years ago is now two feet of sluggish backwater.
I don't blame the barbel for the poor sport. The lies have moved here, works on the weir and banks seem to have changed everything. Then there is the problem of the local 'stuck in the mud' approach to fishing the water. I call it the 'I caught loads in 1962 when there was good water and a huge run, and all i did was fish a static worm' effect. The main cause, i think, of changng lies is the height of the water though. A traditional lie of 30 years ago is now two feet of sluggish backwater.
G
I've seen salmon bully other fish from lie's(big whiskers,pike etc)they can be very aggressive,so i wouldn't worry about barbel taking over all the good lies..plus salmon arn't looking to stop for the long term in these places..
Bap wrote...I would think hard on the Salmon being brought up without Barbel on the Severn theory.. Not all the Salmon returning are true bloodstock.. Do you know the other rivers those imported fish were sourced from???? Or even how many other rivers fish genes are mixed with the imported broodstock, if any of course....
regarding the above,the Severn was boosted with a scottish strain many years ago,,,these are a shorter stockier fish(totally different to long Severn fish) and they run like buggery,,,and i think they make alot of the late May and summer run nowadays...they run hard and are hard to stop and get a taker!!!!!!
stump...
Bap wrote...I would think hard on the Salmon being brought up without Barbel on the Severn theory.. Not all the Salmon returning are true bloodstock.. Do you know the other rivers those imported fish were sourced from???? Or even how many other rivers fish genes are mixed with the imported broodstock, if any of course....
regarding the above,the Severn was boosted with a scottish strain many years ago,,,these are a shorter stockier fish(totally different to long Severn fish) and they run like buggery,,,and i think they make alot of the late May and summer run nowadays...they run hard and are hard to stop and get a taker!!!!!!
stump...
G
Outside,
I know of several forum members fishing hitherto unknown lies and catching salmon..And I agree totaly with the stick in the mud reason for some failures to beach fish or even contact them...I see anglers resolutely fishing the same old ways even after a week long flood has altered a pool drasticaly
Stump...
Was there not also some Wye stock put in the Severn ????? I seem to remember reading somewhere about it back in the fog of time
It's the old grey matter mate
Si....
I know of several forum members fishing hitherto unknown lies and catching salmon..And I agree totaly with the stick in the mud reason for some failures to beach fish or even contact them...I see anglers resolutely fishing the same old ways even after a week long flood has altered a pool drasticaly
Stump...
Was there not also some Wye stock put in the Severn ????? I seem to remember reading somewhere about it back in the fog of time
It's the old grey matter mate
Si....
I don't think a fully grown otter would find it impossible to catch a large barbel or any other large fish. A female was run over where I work last year. She was 42 inches from nose to tip of tail and very powerfully built. Once they get a good hold on the fiish behind the head they would boss it. They will eat salmon lochbois, unfortunately they are known for only taking a few choice mouthfuls and leaving the rest. They will particularly take kelts. I doubt that an otter or two on a salmon or seatrout river will make a huge dent in the stocks compared to the damage goosanders and cormorants do to juvenile fish.
SP8
SP8
Lochbois
You continue to astound with your lack of understanding of fisheries UK wide and more importantly of the types of rivers that have been dealt a serious blow by the ingress of a new and latent predator
As for not knowing if barbel are not being targetted on your local river..have you not spoken with those anglers and clubs that fish intently for the species, if not I'd ask about as what you don't see yourself personally is not a matter of evidential fact to propound to others by uninformed opinion.
I'd suggest you attend angling seminars nationally that relate to these problems and listen to the 1st hand evidence thats been submitted rathr than base your opinions on a snap shot obtained from a sopecific week.....in fact as your not aware. the PR reports have been running well back over the last yrs or more when the problems were becoming more noted'
I'm also appalled at the cynical denials of the problems faced by other branches of our sport and being an ardent fisherman of all three angling disciplines, and having fished at match and national levels in both game and coarse fishing I can certainly speak accurately and with a first hand knowledge of this problem having witnessed some fisheries in Nth Wales actually cleaned out of thier stock by otters alone.
I'd make the observation that while one branch of our sport denies the problems faced by another, to do so fails the sport as a whole and it also gives credence to the old adage of " Them and us" attitude, I'd be quite happy to accuse those that don't believe of being part of the equation in which Angling Unity will certainly fail or Jell when such misconceptions abound and are akin to Oil and water Will never mixing
As to the size of prey that Otters will predate upon, It is now well documented and photographed on some premier fisheries in Shropshire, Staffordshire and Northamptonshire that Otters have attacked, maimed and killed carp to sizes including up to 35lbs..so be under no illusion as to the damage that can be done or as to the unlimited size of prey that can be targetted
On other myths propounded here, I'd have to state from a practical fisheries management point of view, having patrolled many rivers involving game and coarse fish over some 33 yrs, I'd never seen or known of Barbel eating salmon ova, nor do I know of any former EA colleagues having witnessed this situation as far back as the early 70's.
What I do know is that the myth originates in the late 1800's and written upon where gentlemen fishermen on fisheries like the Test, Itchen,Avon and a good number of other Chalkstream fisheries who wished to preserve their trout and salmon fisheries, used to by any means cull, trap and destroy any fish that was considered " vermin" in pursuit of their sport and the anglers of that time made claim to barbel eating salmon eggs.
What is a practical observation is that the spawning habitat of salmon is entirely at odds of where barbel prefer to frequent and I'm sure that those anglers that fish the Upper Severn and other like rivers will know that barbel are not normally found in the headwaters which are in fact a hostile location for barbus barbus to thrive.
If anyone can produce detailed observations which are verifiable and factual. then I'm sure the EA would be delighted to receive such fact.
The other remark about Barbel eating the Fly Life and damaging food sources, again Lochbois is taking heed of a friend rather than the experts....!!! what evidence has been adduced to support such a claim? who is this knowledgable friend...a Ph.d perhaps?
Maybe there is more mileage I'd suggest in calling in the experts to see if the agricultural community are not causing the damage with pesticides after sheep dipping activities in the Tees and its headwaters.
As far as the Stocking of salmon to the Upper Severn headwaters...I can lay claim to having been involved in the very early 80's when Dovey area broodstock was collected and ova laid down in the Upper severn divisions hatchery and later released in many tribs above Caerwys, Carno and many other locations, this being done to help at the time with the intention of enhancing the natural stock before such matters where identified in DNA analysis and genetic stock profiling and the need to preserve stock integrity were identified, now such activities would not be allowed to happen unless a river suffered a massive mortality and there was a mitigation to rebuild lost stocks and a very large scale.
Finally.How about forum members supporting the anglers such as the barbel anglers with the problems of Otter Predation rather than denigrate it through misinformation provided by someone who hasn't got a grasp of reality or any real knowledge of our fisheries as a whole.
As for comparing otters to Cormorants and mergansers.. thats another issue that splits our angling unity when anglers say Cormorants are more harmful....I'd say its best left as a matter of very great concern to angling as a whole that we have both avian and mammalian predators that have been brought about by mans intervention either by inshore coastal overfishing or by a desire to re introduce cute furry animals and for those reasons alone further debate of fisheries protection is essential by all aspects and participants of our sport
You continue to astound with your lack of understanding of fisheries UK wide and more importantly of the types of rivers that have been dealt a serious blow by the ingress of a new and latent predator
As for not knowing if barbel are not being targetted on your local river..have you not spoken with those anglers and clubs that fish intently for the species, if not I'd ask about as what you don't see yourself personally is not a matter of evidential fact to propound to others by uninformed opinion.
I'd suggest you attend angling seminars nationally that relate to these problems and listen to the 1st hand evidence thats been submitted rathr than base your opinions on a snap shot obtained from a sopecific week.....in fact as your not aware. the PR reports have been running well back over the last yrs or more when the problems were becoming more noted'
I'm also appalled at the cynical denials of the problems faced by other branches of our sport and being an ardent fisherman of all three angling disciplines, and having fished at match and national levels in both game and coarse fishing I can certainly speak accurately and with a first hand knowledge of this problem having witnessed some fisheries in Nth Wales actually cleaned out of thier stock by otters alone.
I'd make the observation that while one branch of our sport denies the problems faced by another, to do so fails the sport as a whole and it also gives credence to the old adage of " Them and us" attitude, I'd be quite happy to accuse those that don't believe of being part of the equation in which Angling Unity will certainly fail or Jell when such misconceptions abound and are akin to Oil and water Will never mixing
As to the size of prey that Otters will predate upon, It is now well documented and photographed on some premier fisheries in Shropshire, Staffordshire and Northamptonshire that Otters have attacked, maimed and killed carp to sizes including up to 35lbs..so be under no illusion as to the damage that can be done or as to the unlimited size of prey that can be targetted
On other myths propounded here, I'd have to state from a practical fisheries management point of view, having patrolled many rivers involving game and coarse fish over some 33 yrs, I'd never seen or known of Barbel eating salmon ova, nor do I know of any former EA colleagues having witnessed this situation as far back as the early 70's.
What I do know is that the myth originates in the late 1800's and written upon where gentlemen fishermen on fisheries like the Test, Itchen,Avon and a good number of other Chalkstream fisheries who wished to preserve their trout and salmon fisheries, used to by any means cull, trap and destroy any fish that was considered " vermin" in pursuit of their sport and the anglers of that time made claim to barbel eating salmon eggs.
What is a practical observation is that the spawning habitat of salmon is entirely at odds of where barbel prefer to frequent and I'm sure that those anglers that fish the Upper Severn and other like rivers will know that barbel are not normally found in the headwaters which are in fact a hostile location for barbus barbus to thrive.
If anyone can produce detailed observations which are verifiable and factual. then I'm sure the EA would be delighted to receive such fact.
The other remark about Barbel eating the Fly Life and damaging food sources, again Lochbois is taking heed of a friend rather than the experts....!!! what evidence has been adduced to support such a claim? who is this knowledgable friend...a Ph.d perhaps?
Maybe there is more mileage I'd suggest in calling in the experts to see if the agricultural community are not causing the damage with pesticides after sheep dipping activities in the Tees and its headwaters.
As far as the Stocking of salmon to the Upper Severn headwaters...I can lay claim to having been involved in the very early 80's when Dovey area broodstock was collected and ova laid down in the Upper severn divisions hatchery and later released in many tribs above Caerwys, Carno and many other locations, this being done to help at the time with the intention of enhancing the natural stock before such matters where identified in DNA analysis and genetic stock profiling and the need to preserve stock integrity were identified, now such activities would not be allowed to happen unless a river suffered a massive mortality and there was a mitigation to rebuild lost stocks and a very large scale.
Finally.How about forum members supporting the anglers such as the barbel anglers with the problems of Otter Predation rather than denigrate it through misinformation provided by someone who hasn't got a grasp of reality or any real knowledge of our fisheries as a whole.
As for comparing otters to Cormorants and mergansers.. thats another issue that splits our angling unity when anglers say Cormorants are more harmful....I'd say its best left as a matter of very great concern to angling as a whole that we have both avian and mammalian predators that have been brought about by mans intervention either by inshore coastal overfishing or by a desire to re introduce cute furry animals and for those reasons alone further debate of fisheries protection is essential by all aspects and participants of our sport
G
K-Williams i dont claim to no everything about fishing and i dont want to .I like many thousands would have bought the angling times and read what i read . Can you tell me you have seen an otter eating 15 pounds of Barbel or 30 pound of Carp . Can you tell me if otters are eating Barbel on the Wear. If i had seen any signs of an otter eating a 15 pound barbel i would have told everybody .I just dont understand why you want to kill these otters .PB
Lochbois
I'm not going to exchange replies to stupid questions or ill informed observations.
you have grasped a part of a situation and done no research to base your replies on therafter
In short, I'd appreciate you being a lot more observant of the facts and a lot less hysterical and cynical in the future as your doing the cause of angling no favours whatsoever
Go Out and do your homework before you make wild assumptions, you never know, you may find a glimmer of self satisfaction at having got it correct once in a while
As for my observations, I have seen carp taken and Killed, I have seen dead barbel with the hallmark evidence as have my friends who own fisheries and suffered the financial losses
.
If there are 15lbs barbel in the Tees, have a go for them....U'll certainly get your chain pulled in a way like no other fish will for sport.
I'm not going to exchange replies to stupid questions or ill informed observations.
you have grasped a part of a situation and done no research to base your replies on therafter
In short, I'd appreciate you being a lot more observant of the facts and a lot less hysterical and cynical in the future as your doing the cause of angling no favours whatsoever
Go Out and do your homework before you make wild assumptions, you never know, you may find a glimmer of self satisfaction at having got it correct once in a while
As for my observations, I have seen carp taken and Killed, I have seen dead barbel with the hallmark evidence as have my friends who own fisheries and suffered the financial losses
.
If there are 15lbs barbel in the Tees, have a go for them....U'll certainly get your chain pulled in a way like no other fish will for sport.
G
Do your own homework .Otters are a protected animal in this country .You show me some evidence you claim to be the expert. Why dont you stop blameing animals for spoiling your days fishing .Why dont you tell the people what you intend to do when you have got people to tell you where these otter live. I know where record barbel swim but i have no intention to catch a barbel .I fish for sea-trout,brown -trout,salmon and grayling i dont have a label to go fishing for these fish. Did your friends think they could sink their money into a hole in the ground with all their carp and not expect nature to do what is natural .I thought you would have warned them. PB
Lochbois
Your very blinkered. cynical and don't have a shread of interest in promoting unity in angling.
Its is the very polarised views you hold that have held back angling from being a far greater more powerful voice that it should have been.
I never label any one aspect of the sport as I have the pleasure of being a multi disciplined angler in fresh and marine waters who enjoys fishing for all species as seasons and national byalws allow.
I haven't for one minute advocated the destruction of otters being fully familar withthe Wildlife and countryside act and relevant legislations, what I do decry is the interference of those that carry out propogation schemes of predators without 1st considering the implications nor as has been seen, fail to consult widely especially with those that would be most affected by irresponsible actions.
As for you suggesting I should advise my friends who are in the fishery business to protect their stocks, well the predators moved in only recently and weren't anticipated to the extent that they have now prevailed and as you have little or no concept of seeing fish worth thousands of pounds each in value and that have existed happily in their fishery for anywhere up to some 25yrs being taken, then I'd suggest you remove yourself from critical remarks that are based on a disgraceful biase.
your views are unhelpful and unwarranted....and it would help all on the forum if you kept such comments to yourself at all times unless you can add a real dimension of informed opinion and advice.
I hope your aware that the intention to release beavers will come to the Tees.....shortly... then you'll have an even bigger problem than the Tees barrage
ps on a finer point..i hope to God you never get selected for jury service...you'd never believe factual evidence no matter what is presented to you and the charged wud get away scott free !!!!
Your very blinkered. cynical and don't have a shread of interest in promoting unity in angling.
Its is the very polarised views you hold that have held back angling from being a far greater more powerful voice that it should have been.
I never label any one aspect of the sport as I have the pleasure of being a multi disciplined angler in fresh and marine waters who enjoys fishing for all species as seasons and national byalws allow.
I haven't for one minute advocated the destruction of otters being fully familar withthe Wildlife and countryside act and relevant legislations, what I do decry is the interference of those that carry out propogation schemes of predators without 1st considering the implications nor as has been seen, fail to consult widely especially with those that would be most affected by irresponsible actions.
As for you suggesting I should advise my friends who are in the fishery business to protect their stocks, well the predators moved in only recently and weren't anticipated to the extent that they have now prevailed and as you have little or no concept of seeing fish worth thousands of pounds each in value and that have existed happily in their fishery for anywhere up to some 25yrs being taken, then I'd suggest you remove yourself from critical remarks that are based on a disgraceful biase.
your views are unhelpful and unwarranted....and it would help all on the forum if you kept such comments to yourself at all times unless you can add a real dimension of informed opinion and advice.
I hope your aware that the intention to release beavers will come to the Tees.....shortly... then you'll have an even bigger problem than the Tees barrage
ps on a finer point..i hope to God you never get selected for jury service...you'd never believe factual evidence no matter what is presented to you and the charged wud get away scott free !!!!
G
I've fished for whiskers over the years and have had them to just over 14lb(slightly bigger on worm out of season)..i find the bigger fish hug the bottom in a slow and dour fight,,i'd put the fight of a salmon of the same size in a different class on the right tackle or a double figured sewin for that matter,,,.(lots of the barbel tackle that is used is on parr with salmon tackle i.e line strength's and silkworm hook lengths etc and i've tried barbel rods for fishing the shrimp etc and have found them unable to deal with even low double figured salmon)
To me Cormarants are a sea bird and should stay there,they can decimate carp puddles in no time when flocks of birds decend on them(they will stab larger fish and these are left to die as they carn't swallow them(i think i the license we had we could shoot 2 birds a month,,there were 80-100 birds decending on the lake each day
)...bigger still waters are also at risk from these birds and i've seen them decimate roach stocks etc at big fisheries like 'coombe abbey 'where 100's of birds are roosting near by....parts of the river Avon have sufferd badly from these birds aswell...stump...
There is one problem with this debate - and that is the 'cuddly' problem. Tarka and Ring of Bright Water turned these animals into film stars and endeared them to the nation. I love to see them, but they are getting out of hand.
I note Lochbois mentions 'Why dont you stop blameing animals for spoiling your days fishing?' and this really highlights the cuddly issue, as if it were a Seal (again protected in the UK) he would have commented on it.
Now im not criticising LB, just showing how the 'Cuddly' factor effects our view.
There is no doubt an Otter will take a big Carp, A Kelt etc etc - if they can get it, they will eat it. They are a problem, one of many. Lechlade Trout fishery suffered terribly with the release of Otters, and a number of years ago they lost a large number of double figured Trout to a family of Otters!
Otters are a predator and fish are a food source - it is as simple as that.
The Towy is really suffering with them, and it is rare these days to fish the river without seeing at least one in a pool. I have watched 2 this year on Golden Grove, and a couple at Nantgarredig. If they swim through the pool the fish wont be effected too much, if they stay and hunt - forget it.
People have used the argument that they have pushed the Mink off rivers, and perhaps they have, but the Mink were great for sorting out Goosanders etc, (I saw 22 on one pool on the Dyfi last night). Sawbills are having a huge effect on rivers - and they need sorting out.
Re Barbel, i do like to catch them, they are a hard fighting fish and offer good sport - but i do worry what effect they are having.
Whilst i appreciate KWilliams experience on the subject i struggle with this comment
I'd never seen or known of Barbel eating salmon ova, nor do I know of any former EA colleagues having witnessed this situation as far back as the early 70's.
Just because Barbel have not been witnessed feeding on Salmon OVA, doesn't mean they arent doing it? Of course they will eat the eggs.
Barbel and Salmon share the same areas of the river, Salmon spawn in Barbel stretches and therefore im sure they will eat the eggs. However there are other species that will also do damage.
There surely is some mileage that as Barbel have moved (have been moved) further up the river system that Salmon fishing has been effected? The Wye as a Salmon fishery is now a shadow of its former self, whereas it is a good Barbel Fishery now, the same can be said for the Severn.
Bap - Did Angling Times/Mail stock the Severn with Barbel in the 1950's or even introduce them? Im sure we have discussed this before?
As for Angling Unity - Across the 3 disciplins there will be divides, it will always happen.
Please dont continue with Personal attacks (KWilliams * Lochbois) - it is not welcome.
On a lighter note, if an Otter bit off Terry Nutkins's fingers what hope has a Fish got?
Hoppy
I note Lochbois mentions 'Why dont you stop blameing animals for spoiling your days fishing?' and this really highlights the cuddly issue, as if it were a Seal (again protected in the UK) he would have commented on it.
Now im not criticising LB, just showing how the 'Cuddly' factor effects our view.
There is no doubt an Otter will take a big Carp, A Kelt etc etc - if they can get it, they will eat it. They are a problem, one of many. Lechlade Trout fishery suffered terribly with the release of Otters, and a number of years ago they lost a large number of double figured Trout to a family of Otters!
Otters are a predator and fish are a food source - it is as simple as that.
The Towy is really suffering with them, and it is rare these days to fish the river without seeing at least one in a pool. I have watched 2 this year on Golden Grove, and a couple at Nantgarredig. If they swim through the pool the fish wont be effected too much, if they stay and hunt - forget it.
People have used the argument that they have pushed the Mink off rivers, and perhaps they have, but the Mink were great for sorting out Goosanders etc, (I saw 22 on one pool on the Dyfi last night). Sawbills are having a huge effect on rivers - and they need sorting out.
Re Barbel, i do like to catch them, they are a hard fighting fish and offer good sport - but i do worry what effect they are having.
Whilst i appreciate KWilliams experience on the subject i struggle with this comment
I'd never seen or known of Barbel eating salmon ova, nor do I know of any former EA colleagues having witnessed this situation as far back as the early 70's.
Just because Barbel have not been witnessed feeding on Salmon OVA, doesn't mean they arent doing it? Of course they will eat the eggs.
Barbel and Salmon share the same areas of the river, Salmon spawn in Barbel stretches and therefore im sure they will eat the eggs. However there are other species that will also do damage.
There surely is some mileage that as Barbel have moved (have been moved) further up the river system that Salmon fishing has been effected? The Wye as a Salmon fishery is now a shadow of its former self, whereas it is a good Barbel Fishery now, the same can be said for the Severn.
Bap - Did Angling Times/Mail stock the Severn with Barbel in the 1950's or even introduce them? Im sure we have discussed this before?
As for Angling Unity - Across the 3 disciplins there will be divides, it will always happen.
Please dont continue with Personal attacks (KWilliams * Lochbois) - it is not welcome.
On a lighter note, if an Otter bit off Terry Nutkins's fingers what hope has a Fish got?
Hoppy
G
All i have done is read about the otter problem in the Angling Times . I also listen to Talk Radio" Fishermans Blues" where for the last few weeks the debate has been dealing with the otter problem . K-Williams you say im not very well informed .Can you tell me what you did about the proposal to build a Severn Barrage ,which would of done far more damage to your river than the otter you want to remove. I wrote to the minister and told him what a disaster it would be for the whole of the envoirenment in Wales .
I actually don't agree with the idea that otters drive the mink away. If they do it is very localised, as I often see tracks of both on the same stretch week in week out. Hounds and traps get rid of mink, I'm not sure I trust the otters with the job. I think what most people who are countrymen as well as fishermen is the odd otter on each river, rather than tryng to have twenty per mile on a certain stretch of one river. Why not retrap a few pups from the Tywi and take them somewhere else? The real question I have for the authorities, and I would like it answered before they start releasing and protecting species, is how many Otters/Badgers/Buzzards/Kites/Harriers is too many. Set a level, and when they reach that level they can put them on the open license for a couple of years. With shooting/trapping/hunting-with-dogs it would be impossible to cause the decimation that was possible with strychnine, cymag and DDT, which are all now banned. Of course it was the introduction of myxamatosis that really hammered our predators.
Imagine if they allowed you to shoot otters in just december and january. If you went out every night with a lamp and gun you might get ten or so if there was a huge population. Then imagine you had usual bad weather, and you had the problems of accessing more than your clubs 1 mile stretch of river, and then how many people could do it full time? Its quite clear that you could never actualy endanger the species.
Imagine if they allowed you to shoot otters in just december and january. If you went out every night with a lamp and gun you might get ten or so if there was a huge population. Then imagine you had usual bad weather, and you had the problems of accessing more than your clubs 1 mile stretch of river, and then how many people could do it full time? Its quite clear that you could never actualy endanger the species.
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