River Clwyd 2016

haptonlad

Member
apprentice,

It is pretty clear that salmon stocks are very low; there was hardly any caught this season according to the T and S report. I do however agree, that nobody knows for sure, and that a fish counter should be installed, given that NRW are so worried as we should have hard evidence. But ofcourse, that costs money :rolleyes:

I can't believe that the NRW conduct sampling in such an illogical way. If a flock of goosanders have worked the 10 meter stretch before they arrive, there will be nothing left. Incidentally while night fishing this season, I have seen more goosanders than ever before. I was actually half asleep one night and startled by what appeared to be like a tidal bore moving up river - it was a MASSIVE group of goosanders. I have seen otters and mink. When was the last time anyone saw a coot or moorhen on the river? You don't see any nowadays and must be down to the latter mammals.

I can't justify paying for a migratory license next season, especially with the hike of 10 pounds. I just can't see where my money is going. Just what is the point if you return all fish? It is daft, because seatrout can be caught on trout tactics anyway. There is also no law that says you can't flyfish for night for brownies, and indeed I have caught some real beasts while seatrout fishing at night. So long as you are not specifically targeting seatrout, with seatrout lures, yes apprentice, save yourself the 50 quid.
Marafisher I can see where your coming from mate, it winds me up too with the cost of fishing for migratory fish, I've also thought about just buying a trout licence because I never get asked to produce my rod licence but I really like salmon fishing & the thought of being approached for the migratory licence would make me to uncomfortable on the river bank.
I do hope you stick around you've be a good contributor to this forum since you've come on board:)
 

clwydspecial

New member
So would it be ok to go night time sorry late evening into late dusk fishing for brown trout, targeting the bigger BT with small reseviour flies, if by misschance you hooked a sea trout by mistake and of course released it, could you be prosecuted for migratory fish fishing if you only had a trout licence. As with most people on here all my ST are released unharmed so why bother spending all that money For the few extra hrs fishing into the night.
 

marafisher

New member
Streamer fishing for the bigger, predatory river browns is starting to take off in the UK. The best times, apparently, are after a flood and at dusk. Now someone using this tactic will inevitable accidentally hook the odd seatrout. I can't see how you can be prosecuted for accidentally hooking and returning seatrout, unless you are going out streamer fishing for browns in the middle of a muggy July night, but there is no law or rule, that says you cant go flyfishing for brown trout at night, is there? I have caught my biggest river brownies at night too.
I have caught the odd seatrout on dry flies in the middle of the day, and it also perfectly legal to use spinner and worm for brown trout, where you are likely to accidentally hook seatrout.
The license fee is daft, if you don't want to fish for salmon ofcourse. If you return seatrout, as NRW are increasingly demanding, why pay 50 pounds more?
 

haptonlad

Member
Streamer fishing for the bigger, predatory river browns is starting to take off in the UK. The best times, apparently, are after a flood and at dusk. Now someone using this tactic will inevitable accidentally hook the odd seatrout. I can't see how you can be prosecuted for accidentally hooking and returning seatrout, unless you are going out streamer fishing for browns in the middle of a muggy July night, but there is no law or rule, that says you cant go flyfishing for brown trout at night, is there? I have caught my biggest river brownies at night too.
I have caught the odd seatrout on dry flies in the middle of the day, and it also perfectly legal to use spinner and worm for brown trout, where you are likely to accidentally hook seatrout.
The license fee is daft, if you don't want to fish for salmon ofcourse. If you return seatrout, as NRW are increasingly demanding, why pay 50 pounds more?
Sorry I duplicated this post below, scrubbed it:eek:
 
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haptonlad

Member
Streamer fishing for the bigger, predatory river browns is starting to take off in the UK. The best times, apparently, are after a flood and at dusk. Now someone using this tactic will inevitable accidentally hook the odd seatrout. I can't see how you can be prosecuted for accidentally hooking and returning seatrout, unless you are going out streamer fishing for browns in the middle of a muggy July night, but there is no law or rule, that says you cant go flyfishing for brown trout at night, is there? I have caught my biggest river brownies at night too.
I have caught the odd seatrout on dry flies in the middle of the day, and it also perfectly legal to use spinner and worm for brown trout, where you are likely to accidentally hook seatrout.
The license fee is daft, if you don't want to fish for salmon ofcourse. If you return seatrout, as NRW are increasingly demanding, why pay 50 pounds more?
I don't know what it's like where you lads fish, but I've been fishing for sea trout for nearly 20yrs now & have never been asked yet to produce my licence. I did get asked for the first time ever on the last day of the salmon season last year though.
I do a lot of salmon fishing through out the season so that's the reason I will be purchasing a migratory licence but if I didn't fish for salmon I don't think I'd bother with one TBH.
I really can't see an EA officer patrolling the banks at night when they don't go round in the day, can you!
But if I wouldn't be broadcasting it on an public forum, if I wasn't didn't intend in getting one
 

marafisher

New member
Haptonlad,

Well I never said that I would not be getting a migratory license next year, but think it unlikely, as I want to concentrate on brown trout and other forms of angling. I was getting too little return for time spent seatrout fishing and frankly, I am rather bored with it. I am also not a big fan of night fishing.

I have had my license checked this season and last season, both during the day and I don't see why an EA bailiff would not patrol at night if he/she knew there were enough anglers about.

This is a forum, obviously intended for discussion, and my questions were hypothetical and intended to generate debate. I genuinely do want to try this streamer fishing for BROWN TROUT next season. ( youre unlikely to get the really big brownies on nymphs or dries ) So where do I stand with using this method, when I can imagine this would also accidentally pick up seatrout? Does an angler really have to pay 50 pound more, if they expect to accidentally catch and return the odd seatrout?
 
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haptonlad

Member
Haptonlad,

Well I never said that I would not be getting a migratory license next year, but think it unlikely, as I want to concentrate on brown trout and other forms of angling. I was getting too little return for time spent seatrout fishing and frankly, I am rather bored with it. I am also not a big fan of night fishing.

I have had my license checked this season and last season, both during the day and I don't see why an EA bailiff would not patrol at night if he/she knew there were enough anglers about.

This is a forum, obviously intended for discussion, and my questions were hypothetical and intended to generate debate. I genuinely do want to try this streamer fishing for BROWN TROUT next season. ( youre unlikely to get the really big brownies on nymphs or dries ) So where do I stand with using this method, when I can imagine this would also accidentally pick up seatrout? Does an angler really have to pay 50 pound more, if they expect to accidentally catch and return the odd seatrout?
Anglers will catch salmon & sea trout all the time, when they aren't fishing for them
, there's no crime in this what's so ever.
Tight lines for next season what ever you decide on fishing for Marafisher;)
 

clwydspecial

New member
Did anyone see country file last night, there was a report on the amount of silt entering our river systems by intensive farming. it was interesting how the authorities track the silt using drones and satellite data. This silt layer on the river bed is probably a major contributor to the lack of fry in the river. It was interesting that this mater of 'lack of juvenile fish' in the Clwyd was brought up in our AGM last month.
 

Vol

New member
That's not the first time I have heard that view Paul.

Some pretty smart people those opinion I would trust have been saying the same thing for some time. Its pollution clear and simple.

I would say that it was very noticeable this year that the Clywd took much longer to clear after a flood, even compared to last year. when wading the river, the amount of silt in areas of the river that were clear last year is massive. That must be having an impact on the survival rates of the eggs throughout the system

Mike
 

sewinbasher

New member
The 2016 season was certainly not as good on the Clwyd as the near record seasons of 2014 (1069) and 2015 (1039) but it was not a disaster as believed by some and there was a much better season on the Elwy suggesting that the problems that sea trout had accessing the river in 2014 and 2015 have been at least to some extent been resolved. Brown trout fishing was also good on both rivers with one VCAC member recording 150 to the dry fly.

On the other hand the salmon season was again dire, not helped by consistent low water when the fish would be expected, anecdotally I know of only 2 salmon in 2016. This follows a season with just 9 salmon from the Clwyd in 2015, 12 in 2014 and none from the Elwy in 2015 and 2 in 2014. Going to 100% C&R will not affect this one jot as the return rate in 2015 was 100% for salmon. What I believe would make a difference is a cull of goosanders. I've got numbers for the Dee that suggest that a very small increase in the cull would put more juvenile salmon in the river than increasing the return rate from the current 86% to 100%. On the Dee the cormorants are going to be more likely to be eating grayling but with no grayling in the Clwyd here they are going to be eating only salmonids, most likely browns early season with sea trout featuring later.
 

sewinbasher

New member
I should add that salmon were seen jumping at Ruthin and Bontuchel in late November but not in big numbers, there were however plenty of sea trout redds to be seen as far down as Llanerch, some before October was out.
 

marafisher

New member
The 2016 season was certainly not as good on the Clwyd as the near record seasons of 2014 (1069) and 2015 (1039) but it was not a disaster as believed by some and there was a much better season on the Elwy suggesting that the problems that sea trout had accessing the river in 2014 and 2015 have been at least to some extent been resolved. Brown trout fishing was also good on both rivers with one VCAC member recording 150 to the dry fly.

On the other hand the salmon season was again dire, not helped by consistent low water when the fish would be expected, anecdotally I know of only 2 salmon in 2016. This follows a season with just 9 salmon from the Clwyd in 2015, 12 in 2014 and none from the Elwy in 2015 and 2 in 2014. Going to 100% C&R will not affect this one jot as the return rate in 2015 was 100% for salmon. What I believe would make a difference is a cull of goosanders. I've got numbers for the Dee that suggest that a very small increase in the cull would put more juvenile salmon in the river than increasing the return rate from the current 86% to 100%. On the Dee the cormorants are going to be more likely to be eating grayling but with no grayling in the Clwyd here they are going to be eating only salmonids, most likely browns early season with sea trout featuring later.
I am only going on my honest experience of the Clwyd this year. How many seatrout did you catch?
I did hear from some anglers, that the Elwy fished good last season. After many times going out, I heard a total of two seatrout splashing, which greatly contrast with the previous two seasons, where I also did a lot better. Using logic, I like to think that lack of fish splashing, means an actual lack of fish. I believe that many fish may have actually passed up river, fairly early in the season, as we had plenty of water. When you think about it, although one club has miles of river upstream of Glan Y wern, the reality is that it is that bushed up, and inaccessible due to barbed wire, that it would be virtually impossible for anglers to night fish there. Glan Y wern is only middle reaches of the river, so the seatrout only have to pass this point in persistent high water, and then they are safe from anglers in miles after mile of 'jungle'.

I also caught plenty of brown trout, but I just had this feeling there was less of them. I then hear that the NRW say that the fry numbers are worryingly low, and I remember the fish kill on the feeder stream, the previous year, were thousands were killed. As obviously brown trout migrate through the river system and especially for spawning in autumn ( when the fish kill occurred ) it is simple fact, that there were less trout in the river system this past season
 
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clwydspecial

New member
For me it was an average Seatrout season once I had found the fish that is. Which this season was a nightmare. Please see earlier posts. Trout wise I had great fun early on in the season (may) and the fly life was for two weeks amazing.
I have to add a caveat and that's is my Seatrout season was only 3 weeks long (July/Aug ) and my trout fishing was just those 4 weeks in May. All other time were spent working, how sad is that.
 

marafisher

New member
Hi Clwydspecial,

Yes I did notice you said you found the seatrout upriver, in an earlier post. I also found a small pod of seatrout in the 'jungle', but it is like mission impossible to get them out on a spinner, so impossible on the fly at night. For myself, this seasons seatrout fishing was largely a waste of time to be honest ( but I am only a novice.)

I also agree that the fly hatches were amazing in early summer, and I saw plenty of mayfly. I am certainly not suggesting the river is devoid of brown trout, just that I did visibly notice less of them.

I think you did well in that amount of time. I would crack up, if I could only trout fish for 1 month a year. I met one angler, who said he had only managed 2 fishing sessions all season due to work :confused:
 

sewinbasher

New member
The actual reported catch return for 2016 was just shy of 800 sea trout about 30% of which were from the Elwy. There were 12 salmon but I don't have a Clwyd/Elwy split.
 
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